Talk:Riau Malay phrasebook

Purpose

Is this just a dialect of Malay, like Bahasa Terengganu, which we don't have and presumably don't need a phrasebook for? Would anyone need to know anything but standard Malay when visiting Riau? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:30, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

You probably don't need to know it. Most people in Riau can speak standard Indonesian, and you'll be more or less understood if you speak standard Malay. But I don't see the problem with having a phrasebook for a language with hardly any monolingual speakers in and of itself. We have a phrasebook for Teochew even though you can easily get by with standard Mandarin in the Teochew-speaking parts of China, although it may take time to get used to the strong accent since the locals are also second language learners of Mandarin themselves. If you wanted to create a phrasebook on Bahasa Terengganu or Bahasa Kelantan, there's no reason why we should object. The dog2 (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

So basically any dialect of any language is OK for a phrasebook? Chinese "dialects" are a special case because they are really different languages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I think we have to look at it on a case by case basis. I would say no for Taiwanese Mandarin vs mainland Chinese standard Mandarin because they're not that different, and we can easily cover the differences in a single line. But on the other hand, we do have phrasebooks for the different dialects of Arabic, and not just standard Arabic. And we also have separate phrasebooks for European and Brazilian Portuguese. The dog2 (talk) 16:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

To my understanding, the different dialects of Arabic that are covered are to a large degree mutually unintelligible. That's also true of Terengganu Malay vs. standard Malay, but is it true of Bahasa Riau? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:32, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to that. Pinging User:Riawww to answer that question. But the reason why we don't have a Bahasa Terengganu or Bahasa Kelantan phrasebook is because nobody has created them. I have no reason to object if you want to create a phrasebook for Bahasa Terengganu. The dog2 (talk) 17:54, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't try and think any such phrasebook would be of quite limited usefulness unless it were accompanied by sound files. There are Wikipedia articles about those dialects/languages/whatever, though. (I believe Wikipedia states that Bahasa Kelantan and Bahasa Terengganu are now considered separate languages from standard Malay, but as someone who understands all three, used to be fluent in Bahasa Terengganu and still tends to speak Malay with a Terengganu accent when I speak the language, I think that the degree of mutual unintelligibility is at least as much due to accent as variations in vocabulary, which absolutely exist but I would say are moderate at most.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I see. I guess what would be analogous is me trying to listen to Sichuan Mandarin. The vocabulary is mostly the same, but their tone structure is quite divergent from standard Mandarin, so it's tricky for me to understand. I often need to ask a Sichuan Mandarin speaker to repeat slowly, and I have to listen very attentively before I can understand what they are saying. The dog2 (talk) 14:52, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Because of the vocabulary differences, Terengganu Malay would be harder than that for speakers of standard Malay. I wonder whether the differences between standard Italian and Napuletano might be more analogous, but I'm not sure, as I don't understand Napuletano. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

There's quite a number of local slangs in Sichuan Mandarin that are not used in standard Mandarin or for that matter, in the Mandarin dialects elsewhere in China. Whereas if you go to northeast China, the pronunciation is mostly similar to standard Mandarin, but there unique local slangs that are tricky to understand. I couldn't give you an example because I don't speak those dialects myself. And of course, when to place like Fujian and Guangdong were the local dialect is mutually unintelligible with Mandarin, then you do can significant lexical differences too. The dog2 (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

"Most original" claim

I deleted that, and it was re-added. What in the world is that tendentious phrase ("Riau Malay is the most original variety of Malay language") supposed to mean, User:Riawww? Also pinging User:AlasdairW. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It could be phrased better. "Most original" is a phrase that I only normally hear in informal conversations, often used it sarcastically, eg when the answer to a question is wrong but clever.

In this case it could mean that Riau Malay uses less imported words than other Malay dialects, or that it is close to the dialect written in the earliest Malay writings (like the language used in 1500?). AlasdairW (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

There is a tradition that states that Bahasa Riau is the purest Malay or purest Indonesian (or that the way people speak in Palembang is the purest Indonesian), depending on who you talk to, I believe because it is one of the dialects whose origins (not current form) can be traced to the Srivijaya Empire, but Classic Malay is the Malay of the hikayat (epics), and its relationship to modern Malay is somewhat analogous to the relationship of Shakespearean English to modern English, though as you suggest, it is older. But we wouldn't try to claim that the modern English spoken in Avon is the "most original" form of English, and we aren't teaching people how to speak the formal Malay of the hikayat. Anyway, all forms of Malay have loads and loads of borrow words, just as all forms of English do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Even more tendentious claims

Riawww, you are claiming that Riau Malay is the "ancestor of all modern varieties of Malay used in former Greater Indonesia region." First of all, there was never any such thing as the "Greater Indonesia region," except in the minds of imperialists like Sukarno who tried to grab Malaysia and Singapore by force in the Confrontation, and second, modern Riau Malay cannot be the ancestor of anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

And I've reverted that tendentious text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2023 (UTC)